47 Elizabeth II, A.D. 1998, Canada

Journals of the Senate

---

Issue 74

Tuesday, June 16, 1998
2:00 p.m.

The Honourable Gildas L. Molgat, Speaker

---

The Members convened were:

The Honourable Senators

Adams, Andreychuk, Atkins, Bacon, Beaudoin, Berntson, Bolduc, Bryden, Buchanan, Butts, Callbeck, Carstairs, Chalifoux, Cohen, Comeau, Cook, Cools, Corbin, DeWare, Di Nino, Doody, Fairbairn, Ferretti Barth, Fitzpatrick, Forest, Forrestall, Ghitter, Gigantès, Grafstein, Graham, Grimard, Gustafson, Hays, Hébert, Hervieux-Payette, Johnson, Johnstone, Joyal, Kelleher, Kelly, Kenny, Keon, Kinsella, Kirby, Kolber, Kroft, Lawson, LeBreton, Lewis, Losier-Cool, Lucier, Lynch-Staunton, Maheu, Mahovlich, Maloney, Meighen, Mercier, Milne, Molgat, Moore, Murray, Nolin, Pearson, Pépin, Perrault, Phillips, Pitfield, Poulin, Prud'homme, Rivest, Roberge, Robichaud, (L'Acadie-Acadia), Robichaud, (Saint-Louis-de-Kent), Rompkey, Rossiter, Ruck, St. Germain, Simard, Sparrow, Stewart, Stratton, Taylor, Tkachuk, Watt, Wilson

PRAYERS

SENATORS' STATEMENTS

Some Honourable Senators made statements.

DAILY ROUTINE OF BUSINESS

Government Notices of Motions

With leave of the Senate, The Honourable Senator Carstairs moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Perrault, P.C.:

That when the Senate adjourns today, it do stand adjourned until tomorrow, Wednesday, June 17, 1998, at 1:30 p.m.

The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.

Presentation of Petitions

The Honourable Senator Kelleher, P.C., presented the following petition:

Of The Canadian Manufacturers' Association, of the City of Etobicoke, in the Province of Ontario; praying for the passage of an Act respecting the Alliance of Manufacturers & Exporters Canada.

SPEAKER'S RULING

Last Thursday, June 11th, Senator Cools raised a question of privilege. Her question of privilege relates to the announcement made earlier the same day that some Members of the other place propose to circulate petitions soliciting public support for the abolition of the Senate. With leave, several documents relating to the matter were tabled. In Senator Cools' view, this intended action on the part of the Members of the other place constitutes a breach of the privileges of the Senate.

Without regard to the merits of the case per se, it is my task as Speaker to determine if a prima facie case has been made. If I find that there is a prima facie case, Senator Cools indicated that she was prepared to move the necessary motion.

After quoting several authorities as well as the Constitution Act, 1867, Senator Cools explained what I understand to be the crux of her position which is that abolition of the Senate is akin to the abolition of the country and that the resulting unicameral Parliament would be, in her words, "repugnant to the history, convention, background and culture and Constitution of Canada."

Whatever the merits of this point of view, Senator Cools has failed to show how the actions of Members from the other place in promoting this cause (by circulating petition forms) constitutes a grave and serious breach of the privileges of the Senate or of herself in particular. Yet if this issue is be accorded any priority as a question of privilege, it must meet this test, among others, according to rule 43(1)(d) of the Rules of the Senate.

Reform of the Senate, even its possible abolition, has been a subject of national debate for many years. I myself co-chaired a Special Joint Committee on the Reform of the Senate, some years ago. And I do not think I have to remind Honourable Senators about recent constitutional proposals regarding Senate reform nor about the inquiry of the Honourable Senator Ghitter that is currently on the Order Paper.

The right of Canadians to petition Parliament respecting any matter which might fall within its competence or jurisdiction is fundamental to our constitution. It is a right that cannot be denied. Certainly the reform of the Senate and its possible abolition are subjects that are appropriate for petition. I am advised that numerous petitions on Senate abolition containing several thousand signatures have been received in recent months in the other place. The question of privilege alleged by Senator Cools appears to challenge this fundamental right without providing any justification for the action.

It is my ruling that no prima facie case of privilege has been established.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

GOVERNMENT BUSINESS

A Point of Order was raised respecting the Government's authority to determine the priority of Reports of Committees.

SPEAKER'S RULING

I refer honourable senators to rule 26 on page 29 which states:

Unless otherwise ordered by the Senate and except as provided elsewhere in these rules, the Orders of the Day shall take precedence over all other business according to the following order of priority:

And then under (1) Government Business, I refer honourable senators to (b):

Orders of the Day for the consideration of reports from committees in relation to government bills;

I would then refer honourable senators to the Order Paper and Notice Paper No. 74 for today, Tuesday, June 16. On page 5, honourable senators will see in the list under Government Business, Reports of Committees, item No. 1:

Consideration of the Fifth Report of the Standing Senate Committee on National Finance (Supplementary Estimates (A) 1998-99)...

I remind honourable senators that the consideration of Supplementary Estimates is proceeded with by way of a motion moved by the government. It is government business and it appears under Government Business on the Order Paper, not under Other Business.

I rule the point of order out of order.

Bills

Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Carstairs, seconded by the Honourable Senator Wilson, for the third reading of Bill C-28, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act, the Income Tax Application Rules, the Bankruptcy and Insolvency Act, the Canada Pension Plan, the Children's Special Allowances Act, the Companies' Creditors Arrangement Act, the Cultural Property Export and Import Act, the Customs Act, the Customs Tariff, the Employment Insurance Act, the Excise Tax Act, the Federal-Provincial Fiscal Arrangements Act, the Income Tax Conventions Interpretation Act, the Old Age Security Act, the Tax Court of Canada Act, the Tax Rebate Discounting Act, the Unemployment Insurance Act, the Western Grain Transition Payments Act and certain Acts related to the Income Tax Act.

After debate, The question being put on the motion, it was adopted on division.

The Bill was then read the third time and passed, on division.

Ordered, That a Message be sent to the House of Commons to acquaint that House that the Senate have passed this Bill, without amendment.

Consideration of amendments by the House of Commons to Bill S-2, An Act to amend the Canadian Transportation Accident Investigation and Safety Board Act and to make a consequential amendment to another Act:

1. Page 9, clause 17: Strike out lines 5 and 6 and substitute the following:

"(i) the flight deck of an aircraft,"

2. Page 9, clause 17, Strike out lines 16 and 17 and substitute the following:

"ing personnel, on the flight deck of the aircraft, on".

The Honourable Senator Rompkey, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Cools, that the Senate concur in the amendments made by the House of Commons to this Bill without amendment; and

That a Message be sent to the House of Commons to acquaint that House accordingly.

The question being put on the motion, it was adopted. Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Forest, seconded by the Honourable Senator Fitzpatrick, for the third reading of Bill C-6, An Act to provide for an integrated system of land and water management in the Mackenzie Valley, to establish certain boards for that purpose and to make consequential amendments to other Acts,

And on the motion in amendment of the Honourable Senator Kinsella, seconded by the Honourable Senator DeWare, that the Bill be not now read a third time, but that it be referred to a Committee of the Whole for further consideration.

After debate, In amendment, the Honourable Senator Carstairs moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Robichaud, P.C. (Saint-Louis-de-Kent), that the motion in amendment be amended by striking out the words "be referred to a Committee of the Whole for further consideration" and substituting therefor "be referred back to the Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples for the purpose of hearing the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development".

After debate, The question being put on the sub-amendment, it was adopted.

The question then being put on the motion in amendment as amended of the Honourable Senator Kinsella that the Bill be not now read a third time, but that it be referred back to the Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples for the purpose of hearing the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development, it was adopted.

Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Cools, seconded by the Honourable Senator Mahovlich, for the second reading of Bill C-45, An Act for granting to Her Majesty certain sums of money for the public service of Canada for the financial year ending March 31, 1999.

After debate, The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.

The Bill was then read the second time.

The Honourable Senator Cools moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Butts, that the Bill be placed on the Orders of the Day for a third reading at the next sitting.

The question being put on the motion, it was adopted. Second reading of Bill C-26, An Act to amend the Canada Grain Act and the Agriculture and Agri-Food Administrative Monetary Penalties Act and to repeal the Grain Futures Act.

The Honourable Senator Hays moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Rompkey, P.C., that the Bill be read the second time.

After debate, The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.

The Bill was then read the second time.

The Honourable Senator Hays moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Johnstone, that the Bill be referred to the Standing Senate Committee on Agriculture and Forestry.

The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.

Reports of Committees

Consideration of the Fifth Report of the Standing Senate Committee on National Finance (Supplementary Estimates (A) 1998-99) presented in the Senate on June 15, 1998.

The Honourable Senator Stratton moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator DeWare, that the Report be adopted.

After debate, The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.

Bills

Second reading of Bill C-46, An Act for granting to Her Majesty certain sums of money for the public service of Canada for the financial year ending March 31, 1999.

The Honourable Senator Cools moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Losier-Cool, that the Bill be read the second time.

After debate, The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.

The Bill was then read the second time.

The Honourable Senator Cools moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Chalifoux, that the Bill be placed on the Orders of the Day for a third reading at the next sitting.

The question being put on the motion, it was adopted. Third reading of Bill C-36, An Act to implement certain provisions of the budget tabled in Parliament on February 24, 1998.

The Honourable Senator Bryden moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Pearson, that the Bill be read the third time.

After debate, The Honourable Senator Bolduc moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Forrestall, that further debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting.

The question being put on the motion, it was adopted. Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Carstairs, seconded by the Honourable Senator Hébert, for the second reading of Bill C-47, An Act to amend the Parliament of Canada Act, the Members of Parliament Retiring Allowances Act and the Salaries Act.

After debate, The Honourable Senator Simard moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Rossiter, that further debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting.

The question being put on the motion, it was negatived on division.

The Senate resumed debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Carstairs, seconded by the Honourable Senator Hébert, for the second reading of Bill C-47.

After debate, The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.

The Bill was then read the second time.

The Honourable Senator Carstairs moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Robichaud, P.C. (L'Acadie-Acadia), that the Bill be referred to the Standing Senate Committee on Banking, Trade and Commerce.

The question being put on the motion, it was adopted. Second reading of Bill C-30, An Act respecting the powers of the Mi'Kmaq of Nova Scotia in relation to education.

The Honourable Senator Butts moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Mahovlich, that the Bill be read the second time.

After debate, The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.

The Bill was then read the second time.

The Honourable Senator Butts moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Mahovlich, that the Bill be referred to the Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal Peoples.

The question being put on the motion, it was adopted. Second reading of Bill C-37, An Act to amend the Judges Act and to make consequential amendments to other Acts.

The Honourable Senator Moore moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Ferretti Barth, that the Bill be read the second time.

After debate, The Honourable Senator Cools moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Chalifoux, that further debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting.

The question being put on the motion, it was adopted. Second reading of Bill C-25, An Act to amend the National Defence Act and to make consequential amendments to other Acts.

The Honourable Senator Rompkey, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Robichaud, P.C. (Saint-Louis-de-Kent), that the Bill be read the second time.

After debate, The Honourable Senator DeWare for the Honourable Senator Kelly moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Di Nino, that further debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting.

The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.

Motions

Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Carstairs, seconded by the Honourable Senator Hébert:

That, in accordance with Section 54 of the Access to Information Act, Chapter A-1, R.S.C. 1985, the Senate approve the appointment of the Honourable John M. Reid, P.C., as Information Commissioner.

After debate, The Honourable Senator Carstairs moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Fairbairn, P.C., that the motion be referred to the Standing Senate Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs.

The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.

OTHER BUSINESS

Senate Public Bills

Third reading of Bill S-10, An Act to amend the Excise Tax Act.

The Honourable Senator Di Nino moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator DeWare, that the Bill be read the third time.

After debate, The Honourable Senator Maheu moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Fitzpatrick , that further debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting.

The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.

 _______________________________________

Ordered, That Motion No. 75 standing in the name of the Honourable Senator Phillips be brought forward.

MOTIONS

The Honourable Senator Phillips moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Gustafson:

That, notwithstanding the Order of the Senate adopted on November 5, 1997, the Standing Senate Committee on Social Affairs, Science and Technology which was authorized to examine and report on the state of health care in Canada concerning veterans of war and Canadian Service persons, be empowered to submit its final report no later than December 30, 1998; and

That the Committee be permitted, notwithstanding usual practices, to deposit its report with the Clerk of the Senate, if the Senate is not then sitting; and that the report be deemed to have been tabled in the Chamber.

The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.

 _______________________________________

Ordered, That all remaining Orders be postponed until the next sitting.

ADJOURNMENT

The Honourable Senator Carstairs moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Robichaud, P.C. (L'Acadie-Acadia):

That the Senate do now adjourn.

The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.

Changes in Membership of Committees Pursuant to Rule 85(4)

Standing Senate Committee on Social Affairs, Science and Technology

The names of the Honourable Senators Grafstein and Perrault substituted for those of the Honourable Senators Stollery and Cools (June 16).

Standing Senate Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs

The name of the Honourable Senator DeWare substituted for that of the Honourable Senator Cohen (June 16).

Special Committee of the Senate on Security and Intelligence

The name of the Honourable Senator LeBreton substituted for that of the Honourable Senator Kelleher (June 16).

---